ZAAR...?

topic posted Fri, March 13, 2009 - 12:51 AM by  Frank
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Any guys out there do Zaar? I know that Maharasha & Zadiel play around with a few of the moves. I do it when I'm by myself or just want to meditate. Just wanna get some other guys' opinions & experiences with it.
posted by:
Frank
Colorado Springs
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  • Re: ZAAR...?

    Fri, March 13, 2009 - 9:12 AM
    (response cross-posted since question was cross-posted)

    My two cents, fwiw:

    My opinion on Zaar is that it should not be something one "plays around with" if one has not studied it properly. This is one of those cultural elements that can cause offense if you do it improperly.

    This is a religious ritual. It has specific costuming, specific rhythms and very specific uses. I'm not against it being used in performance, but I suggest getting a teacher to train you to do it and present it properly.
    • Re: ZAAR...?

      Fri, March 13, 2009 - 3:13 PM
      Honestly... I feel that Zaar is a very gender-specific dance. I do love the meditative & ritualistic aspects of the dance, but as a man... I don't really feel comfortable using it in a performance *yet*. That is why I wanted to get some feedback from others.
      • Re: ZAAR...?

        Fri, March 13, 2009 - 10:23 PM
        Well then, learn Zikr instead.

        Zaar IS quite gender specific, but if Mohammed Khalil dance company can do it, the gender argument holds less water. However... Mr. Khalil is Egyptian. He knows ALL the rules and knows how far he can go to break them.

        And if you want meditative, learn to do sufi whirling. And in the correct costume. Doing it in Tribal Fusion gear is a total insult.

        I am afraid to do whirling in performance because I really connect on a level that I'd rather not share on stage. It seems vulgar to let people see me that vulnerable as I open up to the spirit world.
        • Re: ZAAR...?

          Mon, June 1, 2009 - 6:45 AM
          i would agree with valizan on this.
          i've never done zaar myself, but my former teacher recently shared why she no longer does it in performance (she did it ONCE and that was all).
          her reasons were essentially the same as valizan's for not doing whirling in performance.
        • To everything there is a season

          Sat, June 13, 2009 - 7:24 AM
          Sufi whirling is on my list, having had a great first trance-dance experience, but I've had trouble scoring a good source for the correct costume. One would think there are Turkish options, but they're not webby yet. At least the last time I checked. To the interweb!

          (pause for search)

          Yeah, this is the only one that keeps coming up - alhannah.com/products/me482.html - and it doesn't seem quite right for some reason. Made in Jordan, okay, but the "polyester" part continues to haunt this Florida guy.
  • Re: ZAAR...?

    Mon, August 17, 2009 - 5:22 AM
    I am so late coming to this conversation. Sorry about that.

    There is nothing really wrong with men doing movements associated with zar for performance but the movements would be very "female." If you don't mind identifying yourself as feminine on stage then there's really no problem there. Performance zar/stage zar doesn't have the same look or same feel of trance zar, even if you "trance out" while doing it you're still not actually doing zar. What you're actually doing is performing some pretty generic trance movements that will put you under if you relax enough while doing them. Trancing or displaying mock trance for an audience is not inherently disrespectful. It starts becoming more disrespectful the more "authentic" you try to get with it. Dressing appropriately for a zar ritual, using zar music (especially the chanting) would raise my hackles but just some normal costuming and an ayub aren't going to cause any problems.

    The people you have to worry about offending are the people who don't know enough about it and will just naturally be offended by thinking that you don't either. The problem isn't actually about being offensive, the problem is that its ritual music and dance so those who are trained to respond to it will respond to it. If they are in the audience... well crap. You have to take that very seriously. You never know who is watching your performance.

    Last year Arish Lam came out to SOTT and performed a full mock possession ritual, dressing his troupe all in white and carting around a massive portrait of the virgin. I about had a heart attack in my chair. It made me very uncomfortable because I am trained to respond to the music he was using and the imagery he was using. I never feel safe working with Middle Eastern trance music because I know that some dick head out there will think it sounds spooky and use it in a performance not understanding that it has a context it has to stay within in order to remain sacred. I do not need to drop during somebody's performance. Really.

    As for whirling... you guys are familiar with tanoura right? The performance version? I've seen people spin to just about every type of music possible. Its the music that is sacred, the movements are secondary. You can whirl to anything that isn't trance music and be perfectly fine because then you are presenting a spiritual aspect of yourself for the entertainment of others. You can also spin in whatever the heck you want to wear. The tanoura dancers wear something a bit more flashy than ritual dervishes because it looks neat, it carries the visual effect well. Think about the visual effect you are going for and have at it.

    If you want to know more or have any other questions you can contact me anytime on tribe. ;-)

    ~*Spoon*~
    • Re: ZAAR...?

      Mon, August 17, 2009 - 6:04 AM
      I am of the school of:

      Everything is Sacred
      Nothing is Sacred

      And because of this, any and all physical and spiritual movements (dances, prayers, thoughts, etc...) are open for this human body and mind to perform, in sacred or profane venues, and specific or non-specific clothing, without fear of judgment.

      It is when we place judgment on others that we judge ourselves, invite feelings of superiority and inferiority, and hence move us further from true peace and understanding.

      Is it not shortsighted to decry only Sufis are allowed to spin?

      Is it not shortsighted to state that no one may dress their troupe all in white while displaying some icon?

      May not these performance be just what someone in the audience or on the stage needs to access their spiritual side and hereby heal themselves, and so, others and the world?

      Peace unto us all.

      Sincerely,
      Ocean
      • Re: ZAAR...?

        Mon, August 24, 2009 - 7:58 AM
        Ocean,
        I agree. Spinning is great. I also agree that people can dress in all white and dance in front of icons of whomever they want.

        When it becomes so commonplace that people loose respect for the symbolism then I have a problem. Treat sacred dance like sacred dance and everything will be fine.

        ~*Spoon*~
        • Re: ZAAR...?

          Fri, August 28, 2009 - 12:51 PM
          Hi Poison,

          Can it not be sacred on a stage?

          Are not many sacred dances performed on stages for the benefit of the audiences, congregations, parishoners, and members that are present and watching?

          I understand your desire to maintain the sacred feeling of your sacred dances and I am glad for you that the connection exists.

          Keep in mind that almost everything we have ever done or said was at one time sacred to someone somewhere, including our language, singing, and dance vocabularies. It is the natural progression for the sacred to become the mundane to become the profane, and back again.

          Think so? Let's talk about it? I'm enjoying this conversation.

          Sincerely,
          Ocean
          • Re: ZAAR...?

            Fri, August 28, 2009 - 10:56 PM
            The key of course here, Ocean, is what are you considering as your stage.

            When I go to church, I expect sacred music to go with my helping of ritual. I'm uncomfortable calling a church a stage because I see them as very different things, even though there is communication happening in both cases.

            The big difference is faith and belief in God.

            When I watch Suhaila, or Fat Chance Bellydance, or Jim Boz or whomever bellydance, I am there to be entertained. I have no expectation that what I see will help me in my neverending struggle to live my life.

            When I go to church and listen to whoever is on the pulpit, I am not there for the entertainment value. It is more like school. There are things I hope to learn in my neverending struggle to live my life. :D

            When the Mevlana dervishes whirl on a stage, they doing so to expose people to THEIR FAITH. This is THE important part of their life that they are sharing. They understand all the ins and outs of what they are doing when they share their sacred dance with others on a stage. Unlike entertainers, however, they do not solely whirl on stage. They do not await bookings for performance.

            However, saying the everything we have ever done was at one time sacred sticks in my craw as somewhat false. With all due respect to you sir. :)

            If I pick my nose, I have a hard time thinking that was once considered "sacred." If we look at it from a dance point of view, most tribal fusion has next to no base in sacred. You'd be stretching to connect hip hop movement to sacred.

            And I am leery to get into this discussion because talk about religion always ends up bad. :)
            • Re: ZAAR...?

              Sat, August 29, 2009 - 10:15 AM
              "And I am leery to get into this discussion because talk about religion always ends up bad. :) "

              Then let's keep it in the realm of dance and history.

              There are three basic categories of dance; social, performance and experiential.
              A social dance is a dance performed by regular people for recreation. A Performance dance is a dance performed by trained professional dancers to entertain spectators. An experiential dance is a religious dance that is designed to create certain feelings on the part of the dancer performing it.

              There are also sub-categories to these main three that expand it out a bit further; religious and secular. Religious dances can be social, performance or experiential. Secular dances can also be social, performance or experiential. In this it is the presentation that changes the context and not the movements themselves.

              What we are discussing is, "Is it acceptable for experiential religious dances to be performed at secular performance venues?"
              Ocean states that all music and dance is sacred. I agree. The act of making music and dancing is a magical thing, a gift to human kind.
              I do not agree that it is okay to mix and match categories. A performer who does not participate in the rituals of a given dance culture but presents an estimation of a religious dance on stage from that culture is not going to understand the signals he or she is giving. Dance is also a language. Performing a dance you don't know is like speaking gibberish to a native speaker and acting as if your clear lack of respect for studying the native speaker's language should be praised.

              Is it acceptable for a performer to present a religious dance that they personally participate in and understand on stage? Yes. That's the ideal situation as far as I'm concerned. Dance itself may be sacred but you cannot forget that it is also a language and everything a dancer says with their clothing, body and music convey a message. The issue is not, "Is it okay for me to do it?" The issue should be, "Do I know this dance to begin with?"

              If you do then you should be able to do a good job. If you don't then you are essentially going to be lying to your audience. Dance the sacred dances you know and nobody get's hurt because only then can you say what needs to be said in the right context.

              Performers have been presenting performance versions of sacred dances as early as the Greeks but they understood how to do it without saying "Fuck You" to the dance form and the spirits connected to it in the process. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying do it right.

              ~*Spoon*~
              • Re: ZAAR...?

                Sat, August 29, 2009 - 5:40 PM
                "Performers have been presenting performance versions of sacred dances as early as the Greeks but they understood how to do it without saying "Fuck You" to the dance form and the spirits connected to it in the process. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying do it right."

                ::nods::
                • Re: ZAAR...?

                  Wed, September 2, 2009 - 11:15 AM
                  I also want to point out that all of this came about as a response to Frank who just wanted to know it\f its okay to do some "Zar Moves" in personal practice. It was mentioned more as a gender issue than a spiritual issue. I just want to reiterate that men can and do participate in Zar rituals. It is still considered "Women's Medicine" but only because there is a stigma of weakness that comes with it. Its a Blood Mystery in many ways.

                  None of the moves I have ever seen any belly dancer put on stage have ever belonged exclusively to Zar.

                  ~*Spoon*~
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: ZAAR...?

                    Wed, October 14, 2009 - 5:28 PM
                    Thanks y'all.

                    I don't necessarily agree with everything we have all written, but such is life, no? :)

                    I am agreeing to disagree without pointing out examples, but want you to know I appreciate the points of view and dialogue.


                    Leaves to pick nose spiritually, and move hip in Spiritual Tribal Fusion manner! LOL!

                    Love,
                    Ocean

                    Ps. It was nice getting to know you a little at war this year Val, and I think that was the best mead I've ever tasted!

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